March 11, 2014

Are Dwarf Organ Guns... broken!?!

I have to ask this question after spending several hours struggling to put together a Dwarf list that conformed to an 11pt Swedish Comp limit for (hopefully) my next New Zealand WHFB tournament Runefang VII.  It was a struggle but I finally came up with a list I will try out tonight.

Now my final list contains two Master Engineers and two Organ Guns, both Organ Guns have the Rune of Forging (one with Burning as well to comply with Rune rules).  Now this is where things get really interesting as the list and these runes effectively create warmachines that can NEVER (well hardly never) MISFIRE, and I do mean (hardly) NEVER.

We can do it by combining a Master Engineer with an Organ with a Rune of Forging and here's how.

Organ Gun Rules p.49 of Dwarf book
"To fire... roll two artillery dice... if one of the dice rolls a misfire... all shots... suffer -1 to hit.  If both dice roll a misfire... roll a d6 and consult the black powder war machine misfire chart in the warhammer rulebook"

Engineering rune rules p.65 of Dwarf book for the Rune of Forging
"A warmachine engraved with the rune of forging can re-roll THE artillery dice whenever a misfire result is rolled, however you must accept the result of the second roll."
Note that the wording is "THE" artillery dice, not "AN" artillery dice or "ONE" artillery but "THE" plural meaning if I roll a misfire on both dice the Rune of Forging lets me re-roll both of them.

Now this is where it gets really interesting...

Master Engineer Special rules p.35 of Dwarf book "Artillery Master"
"If a Master Engineer is not fleeing, a single war machine that is within 3" of him can use his BS and re-roll one artillery dice.  This dice cannot be the artillery dice that determines the distance a cannon ball bounces or a flame cannons burst of flame moves."

Note nothing in here about Organ guns.  The situation these three rules create in the shooting phase is this:

  1. I choose to fire at an enemy unit with an Organ Gun inscribed with the Rune of Forging.
  2. To support it a nearby Master Engineer uses his Artillery Master ability.
  3. I roll two artillery dice.
After No.3 several things can happen

Scenario 1
  • Dice 1 = misfire & Dice 2 = number of hits
  • Re-roll Dice 1 using artillery master 
  • Dice 1 re-roll = another misfire
  • Re-roll Dice 1 using Rune of Forging
Scenario 2
  • Dice 1 = misfire & Dice 2 = misfire
  • Re-roll Dice 1 using artillery master & Re-roll Dice 2 using Rune of Forging
  • Dice 1 = another misfire 
  • Re-roll Dice 1 using Rune of Forging
Scenario 3
  • Dice 1 = hits & Dice 2 = hits
  • Re-roll Dice 1 using Artillery Master to get more hits
  • Result Dice 1 = misfire
  • Re-roll Dice 1 using Rune of Forging
If these scenarios work there is effectively no way an Organ Gun can misfire, unless you are very unlucky, and I will generally always get the chance to improve the number of shots I have at any target. Put a Rune of Accuracy on the Organ as well (which grants +1 to hit) and even rolling one misfire doesn't hurt you.  Put Grimm Burloksson in the list and he can even give you re-roll's to hit.

A little voice in my head says you cannot re-roll a re-roll making all of these scenarios invalid - but there is still something fishy about how strong Organ Guns are now.  I don't mind but I am guessing that they are going to take a composition score beating at some point.

Would be very interested in other players interpretation... 


Jossy said...

You can never re-roll a re-roll.
Its a BRB rule so all your scenarios are invalid.
You can either re-roll both artillery dice using rune of forgeing, or re-roll 1 artillery dice using the engineer.
Once you re-roll one dice you cannot then re-roll them again

John Murrie said...

Ah ha cheers for that - was wondering. But what about the rule that army books supercede the main rulebook? would that change anything?

Jeffrey Kent said...

Classic John Murrie, always searching for the new filth..

Tane said...

But Jeff, while he searches, you find it (and play it...)

You'll find me over there,on the moral high ground, sitting on my high horse.

But no, I'd never reroll a reroll, regardless of how many runes and engineers were along for the ride.

Sam said...

Just to clarify, you cannot re-roll a re-roll.

Anonymous said...

Agree with those above. You can't re-roll an re-roll. For the army book to supersede the BRB , it would have to specifically state that you could re-roll a re-roll in this instance.